Curse

Arkantos · Jun 24, 2009, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Minions will drain Shelter, Displacement and Union in seconds.
This basically renders them useless as the minions die almost as quickly anyway. And that sort of prot is more than most minion masters can offer.

Having lots of spirits is almost as good, as they provide a number of squishy target alternatives, just not as many. Unfortunatly, they're not quite as expendable as minions.

Again, even though they last for about 5 seconds, they're not useless. 5 seconds is all you need to take down 1-2 key targets. Once these key targets are down, your party is still going to have full health, and you should be able to easily roll through the mob. They're especially useful in long battles. If your party is taking damage and these spirits recharge (takes 18 seconds with ritual lord), these spirits are going to be very helpful.

If you want to test how useful the spirits are, try this:

- Gate of Madness HM
- Bring spirits
- Aggro a group of Margonites and Tormented
- Repeat steps 1 and 3

I can assure you that killing the 2 mobs with the 3 spirits is going to be much, much easier. If it makes it easier, the spirits are helping.

zwei2stein · Jun 24, 2009, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Superior rune is three triggers of union, one trigger of displacement/shelter on Arky 1-man communer. Hardly worth it for communing hero.

It's 2 DPS extra per spirit (3 DPS with painful bond). that's 12 DPS for Arky 1-man + splinter (which has best breakpoint at 14 anyway). I would not call that win either.

I'd say running superior runes on Rts gives meh results akin to running any other sup rune and is certainly very far from 'anyone NOT running superior Channeling/Communing runes on their rit heroes are stupid'

It simply lacks 'exponential quality' of having superior death magic rune, imo the only sup rune worth running.

Xenomortis · Jun 24, 2009, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Again, even though they last for about 5 seconds, they're not useless. 5 seconds is all you need to take down 1-2 key targets. Once these key targets are down, your party is still going to have full health, and you should be able to easily roll through the mob. They're especially useful in long battles. If your party is taking damage and these spirits recharge (takes 18 seconds with ritual lord), these spirits are going to be very helpful.

If you want to test how useful the spirits are, try this:

- Gate of Madness HM
- Bring spirits
- Aggro a group of Margonites and Tormented
- Repeat steps 1 and 3

I can assure you that killing the 2 mobs with the 3 spirits is going to be much, much easier. If it makes it easier, the spirits are helping.

I don't understimate the spirits.
I might be underestimating their duration with minions, but I have not observed this to be very long (though I wasn't generally bringing Armor of Unfeeling).

But by the sound of it, you really don't need the minions.

I also confess to having only properly run these spirit builds on my rit and her heroes, so I've been losing out on some human player damage.

Arkantos · Jun 24, 2009, 09:02 PM // 21:02

If I got rid of the minions I'd be losing damage, but gaining defense. Swapping the MM for another high damage hero build would probably be beneficial, although I'm not sure how beneficial. You do gain defense, but you also have less distractions running around, which means the enemies are more likely to attack your party members and the spirits. It's definitely worth a try, though.

Xenomortis · Jun 24, 2009, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Superior rune is three triggers of union, one trigger of displacement/shelter on Arky 1-man communer. Hardly worth it for communing hero.

Assume 12 Spawning Power

Displacement
15 Communing:
Level 14 spirit - 414 health = 7 triggers (death occurs on 7th trigger)
At 16 Communing:
Level 15 spirit - 474 health = 8 triggers (death occurs on 8th trigger)

The difference is 2 triggers with Armor of Unfeeling.

Shelter
15 Communing:
Level 12 Spirit - 355 Health - 45 Health loss = 8 triggers (death on 8th)
16 Communing:
Level 13 Spirit - 385 - 43 Health loss = 9 triggers (death on 9th)

Armor of Unfeeling can increase the trigger difference to 2.

Union
15 Communing:
Level 12 Spirit - 355 Health = 24 triggers (death on 24th)
16 Communing:
Level 13 Spirit - 385 = 26 triggers (death on 26th)

Again, difference can be doubled (4) with Armor of Unfeeling.

I've just assumed 16 vs 15. The difference between Major/Superior may vary depending on the attribute ranks in question.

With the amount of prot going round, I would say the health loss is justified.

Moloch Vein · Jun 24, 2009, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Superior rune is three triggers of union, one trigger of displacement/shelter on Arky 1-man communer. Hardly worth it for communing hero.

It's 2 DPS extra per spirit (3 DPS with painful bond). that's 12 DPS for Arky 1-man + splinter (which has best breakpoint at 14 anyway). I would not call that win either.

I'd say running superior runes on Rts gives meh results akin to running any other sup rune and is certainly very far from 'anyone NOT running superior Channeling/Communing runes on their rit heroes are stupid'

It simply lacks 'exponential quality' of having superior death magic rune, imo the only sup rune worth running.

You are forgetting the armor increase of the spirits due to having higher level.

Assuming Spawning Power 10:
Shelter @ 14 Communing: Level 11 Spirit with 378 Health and 69 Armor.
Shelter @ 16 Communing: Level 13 Spirit with 434 Health and 81 Armor.

Spirits are notoriously hard to protect. Save Yourselves has no effect on them. Neither does any sort of ward. The armor increase is very significant. This also, perhaps especially so, goes for attack spirits.

I'd still say not running superiors is pretty brain-dead, if you ask me.

radbout · Jun 24, 2009, 09:57 PM // 21:57

If you always flag the communing hero back you could consider to give him a sup since he will not be targeted by the monsters. If you flag him very far back you could also avoid some or all of the drawback-effects of minions triggering spirits. This however puts you in a disadvantage when they retreat and you gotta follow them, (where you run out of spirits range). It also means you lose your prot if you are flanked from behind or the side by lets say patrols who will surely target the hero and his spirits.
Depending on the situation using these strategies could prove to be helpful and allow you to run along a mm with minimal drawbacks. Not running a MM = very, very high risk that spirits die = less damage and prot = fail. Imo I think this build needs a MM to be effective.

Moloch Vein · Jun 24, 2009, 10:03 PM // 22:03

I tested running a vanquish of Magus Stones in HM with two Rt/X Communers and one N/Rt Restoration, no minions, and generally speaking Displacement and Union was up until they died naturally. I did wipe once due to stupidly aggroing about 20 frogmen. No "Save Yourselves", only hero/hench. Entire vanquish took around 45 minutes active time. Also quite obviously as demonstrated, running with minions = high risk that spirits die, not the reverse.

Seriously, stop being so scared of a 75hp health loss. It's not the end of the world.

Bill Clinton · Jun 24, 2009, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Seriously, stop being so scared of a 75hp health loss. It's not the end of the world.

75 Health loss is more than you know. Its not about the fact that they have less max health and easier to kill because of it, its because if your healers have got less health than everyone else in the team the AI targets them and swarms them. Then they die and, what do you know, they have even less health because of death penality. Even more likely to be targeted, even more likely to die. And so on.

I would agree with just flagging the hero back. I did Raisu palace, hard mode just now in 16minutes using this build. That was on my sixth atempt after being wiped at various points in the mission, and that was also the first time I bothered to just flag my heros apart/back before agroing. It really works wonders, especially for this build.

Moloch Vein · Jun 24, 2009, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Clinton

75 Health loss is more than you know.

I'm quite sure it's not more than I know.

Bill Clinton · Jun 24, 2009, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

I'm quite sure it's not more than I know.

I meant that there is more to it than meets the eye. Was that so difficult to comprehend?
And get back on subject.

radbout · Jun 24, 2009, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

I'm quite sure it's not more than I know.

Both of you got a point really.
The defensive abilities of the communing rit really are quite effective in negating damage so for damage alone I would have to agree its not really an issue that needs an MM.

However many interrupting foes or aoe eles and hex/condition spammers will no longer be distracted and damaged by the minions. The party could easily wipe taking all that pressure. The MM provides defense and offense hard to be replaced by anything else, Therefor its a real must have for this build.

But in areas with no corpses You could still spiritway without a MM and still have some advantage from your spirits along with a replacement for the MM. (like a inep/interruptmess for example). Quite an awesome build eh?

Moloch Vein · Jun 24, 2009, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Clinton

I would agree with just flagging the hero back. I did Raisu palace, hard mode just now in 16minutes using this build. That was on my sixth atempt after being wiped at various points in the mission, and that was also the first time I bothered to just flag my heros apart/back before agroing. It really works wonders, especially for this build.

I didn't quite understand what your problem was, so I tried using my hero-hench build for that mission (you know, the one with Superior Communing ritualists.) I actually spent 22 minutes finishing it, because I wanted to kill some mobs to open some chests, but the only death I suffered was once when Brutus decided that touch range was just dandy against the E boss. Again, no Save Yourselves - N/Rt me, 2xRt Commune, 1xN/Rt WoR, N, E, Mo, Mo henchmen, Argo, Danika. Union and Displacement stayed up most of the time during the mission.

upier · Jun 24, 2009, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

No "Save Yourselves", only hero/hench.

At the end of the day, this is what it's really important.
We are dealing with Special Olympics here. We aren't running a full human party with max titles, we aren't abusing consumables, ... - so when both approaches succeed, does does it really matter who sucked less?
We are still dealing with something that is sub-par by default.

Moloch Vein · Jun 24, 2009, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

when both approaches succeed, does does it really matter who sucked less?

Actually, yes, yes it does.

Xenomortis · Jun 24, 2009, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

At the end of the day, this is what it's really important.
We are dealing with Special Olympics here. We aren't running a full human party with max titles, we aren't abusing consumables, ... - so when both approaches succeed, does does it really matter who sucked less?
We are still dealing with something that is sub-par by default.

I cannot necessarily run SY when H/Hing.
I cannot always afford consumables.
I do not always have the maximum rank in whatever titles are relevant to my PvE skills.

I would like to maximise my chances of success considering the above.

I really do not understand why this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

so when both approaches succeed, does does it really matter who sucked less?

is a relevant statement. I could construct an argument saying something a little more extreme and your logic would still apply.
Of course it doesn't really matter, but that does not progress the discussion.

Moloch Vein · Jun 24, 2009, 11:23 PM // 23:23

In order to say something constructive, let me point out that since I run dual Communing ritualists I also run dual Union and Displacement - I don't use Shelter - and if you give the heroes bars that aren't too similar, they will chain those spirits properly. I suspect that's why I have close to 100% uptime.

radbout · Jun 25, 2009, 12:36 AM // 00:36

I have been testing a self-made version of spiritway. I kindof liked the results.

hero 1: a communing rit
same as the one in this link: http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_1_Man_Spiritway

Hero 2: a MM/curses necro same as the one in the link, merely changed fomf for wsr (the shoutrezz is wonderfull), making him a n/p. this is only advised if you dont have the wish for any sort of hex removal which u could switch with a curses skill.

hero 3: a N/rt channel/resto nec that uses soulreaping for more efficient e management.
Using: 8 soulreaping 11 channeling 11 resto.
1 Painfull bond
2 SoS
3 bloodsong
4 splinter
5 life
6 mend body and soul
7 spirit light
8 protective was kaolai

The problems with condition removal and lack of heal have been solved at the cost of some offensive power and life of the spirits.
example:
I did the zaishen bounty (lady of the lake) HM with ease. I just ran onto the frozen lake and got caught in a swarm of patrolling monsters. I flagged my h/h team and constantly had 2 or even 3 groups of monsters agroed. I had some (2-3) deaths but they where rezzed very quickly so it hard to tell (I do love the new shoutrezz).

Chthon · Jun 25, 2009, 02:54 AM // 02:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Assuming Spawning Power 10:
Shelter @ 14 Communing: Level 11 Spirit with 378 Health and 69 Armor.
Shelter @ 16 Communing: Level 13 Spirit with 434 Health and 81 Armor.

...

I'd still say not running superiors is pretty brain-dead, if you ask me.

Ding! Case closed.

On a different topic, I've come to see that Shelter(/Union/Displacement) plus minions isn't the terrible, awful, very bad, no good anti-combo that it first appears.

How bad it is depends on what role you want Shelter to serve. If you're using Shelter to guard against the wtfpwn, then having Shelter fry itself protecting minions and leaving the party unprotected until it comes back up is obviously bad. On the other hand, if you're using Shelter for efficient bulk damage mitigation, having minions is a slight positive, if anything. Every additional hit the monsters need to spend to bring down a minion that Shelter saved is an additional hit that's not being made against a party member. In that sense, preventing a hit against a party member by mitigating a hit against a minion or directly mitigating a hit against a party member is a wash. The slight positive comes in where party members who aren't being hit at all are going to perform better because they don't have to kite, etc. and can concentrate on killing stuff.

fenix · Jun 25, 2009, 03:17 AM // 03:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Ding! Case closed.

On a different topic, I've come to see that Shelter(/Union/Displacement) plus minions isn't the terrible, awful, very bad, no good anti-combo that it first appears.

How bad it is depends on what role you want Shelter to serve. If you're using Shelter to guard against the wtfpwn, then having Shelter fry itself protecting minions and leaving the party unprotected until it comes back up is obviously bad. On the other hand, if you're using Shelter for efficient bulk damage mitigation, having minions is a slight positive, if anything. Every additional hit the monsters need to spend to bring down a minion that Shelter saved is an additional hit that's not being made against a party member. In that sense, preventing a hit against a party member by mitigating a hit against a minion or directly mitigating a hit against a party member is a wash. The slight positive comes in where party members who aren't being hit at all are going to perform better because they don't have to kite, etc. and can concentrate on killing stuff.

Which is absolutely EXACTLY why we have Shelter/Union/Displacement in the build. I'm glad you get it